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| Iron Man Tourney by Dey33 | | If anyone needs a player for next Saturdays Iron Man, please let me know. 717-629-1808. Brian | | Players of the game by rwagner | | Wow you kiddin me! Whoever wrote this up should check with the players who were there...the best pl... | | Scoring Correction RAM LAW/CUTTERS 12/7 by RAM Law #17 | | Although I would love to have scored the other day it was all Christian D'antonio. He scored both go... | | Adopt A TROOP Campaign by cjsha_admin | | ADOPT A TROOP CAMPAIGN (Go to Check It Out and see the Flyer Info) We will be collecting five of... | | Suspensions! by robplough1 | | I've played in alot of hockey leagues in my life and this league i'm very impressed with.The... |
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aplayer
Posts:5
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| 08/08/2008 7:55 AM |
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| why is that 18 of the top 20 players in this league (based on draft placement the last 2 years for the draft tournament)play on the top 2 teams? why did dey, patel and bertoli all join these teams last year? why do guy and sandro play with savoys? wht if a couple of these guys played with the mustangs or stonecutters? I think for the future of this league Marty's and Savoys, if they are up to the challenge, should split their teams in half...make their own teams or join other teams...just an observation. It seems odd that the top guys in this league all want to play on the same 2 teams. why not have a 2 tier league with 4 teams in each tier....where every game is close...no more blow outs. no more games with guys getting 10 points in a game...what fun is that!! just an observation. |
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rwagner
Posts:16
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| 08/08/2008 9:21 AM |
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| I'm all for the two tier league...it's the only way to break the new teams in or they'll just fold within three years....If the majority of the league besides those two teams is role players then splitting each in two would allow role players to do what they're good at on like a 2nd or 3rd line rather than have to be their team's makeshift first line...It's the huge problem with trying to bring people onto your team as a new or bottom four team...without any waiver rule or anything like that the best players keep going to the same spots when they enter...I would vote for the two tier league in a meeting no problem...the teams that are already good and/or more wrought in convention won't hear it...If Rosa's ends up folding due to a lack of interest I'll understand why ....being shellacked 7 to 8 times a year is no fun, a waste of a sunday morning in some ways, and is not advertising to any quality players that they should join your team....while some will say it's up to the captain to find better players, that's just not the case...not everyone has time for three, four leagues or knows people that play deck hockey....ON the other hand...those two teams are good because the quality of their pretty much superior lines already gets augmented by the fact that they've played together for so long...that's great for them and shows awesome consistency...but just exacerbates the uphill struggle for any type of new team...At the last meeting I made the point that there should be an 8 goal rule instead of a 10 goal rule...well, i backed timmy...but it makes sense...the only thing that's good for is padding stats and egos...and crushing what little confidence or progress other teams are making...People can talk all the trash they want about Rosa's or other teams close to it...but I see it more as I think that the original post guy sees it...You're either Marty's/Savoy's or everybody else...If there's ever a vote for two tiers, as I suggested in last year's posts, then I'm all for it...I can see in the very near future a time where I just go to the Eden type tournaments where it's actually fun rather than deal with the same situation every year |
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aplayer
Posts:5
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| 08/09/2008 9:15 AM |
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| Tim, Alan, Blair - what do you think? have 8 captains....4 in each tier. call it an equalization draft....so 5 guys from savoys and 5 guys from Marty's go to other teams...due to their newness to these teams. as an example from Savoys say...sandro, guy, bertoli, dey and 1 other dman and from Marty's arnao, patel, carr, bezek and another dman. |
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cjsha_admin
Posts:30
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| 08/10/2008 12:44 AM |
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I can understand where you guys are coming from. There is 2 thoughts about this. One school of thought you will always have in any sport a team a 2 that stands above the rest, and it makes you always try to get better and step up to the challenge. The other that I understand, this is a rec league and it can be very aggravating at times. I do understand that some teams or players have better opportunities and access to other players than other teams. I agree we need to have some compromise, but I don't think this season we can throw something in an have it approved it a big change like that. I think what we need to do
and I plan on coming up with an idea and tossing it around at the next meeting and maybe give guys time to think about it for next season. Change is always hard so this league has been for the most part a routine. I do agree there is a need for a change but I think it something that will be need of discussion and thoughts from everybody to achieve the best direction. That is just my opinion.
Alan #28 |
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rwagner
Posts:16
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| 08/10/2008 7:46 PM |
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I know Al. The Islanders have more of a chance of winning 4 more in a row than there being any fast and/or dramatic changes made this year...Also, definitely...we should maybe try to create a league growth committee or something like that...the narrowing roster size could work ...On the other hand redistribution sounds like it would be shot down repeatedly...The redistribution that happens during the draft tournament is what makes it fun and what makes that tournament unique!
Ryan |
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smitty
Posts:3
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| 08/11/2008 10:42 AM |
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well this is certainly an interesting discussion. In theory it would seem as though splitting the teams up would be a good idea, though I can certainly see its drawbacks. The problem with this league is that it is a VOLUNTARY attendance situation. If guys dont like their team, they do not have to show up. So lets say scott bertolli gets put on rosa's. Are you telling me that he would go from playing professional hockey to playing on the last place team in a recreational league? I doubt it. Think realistically.
The draft tournament that we had last year was very successful. Im not sure if we could go that route, but it would make for some damn fine hockey as there would be less of a chance of a team dominating the league. Each week any team would be able to win (think of what the salary cap did for the nfl).
I am not sure what the answer is, but I do agree that if you are on a team that gets smoked every week, it is tough to keep the guys you have and recruit good players to your team. And I doubt that players on these teams have enough fun to keep them in the league for any duration of time Even if we went to a two tiered league I doubt that would have any impact on teams that didnt win many games at all last year. It's not like they had a bunch of wins against the remaining teams and just got smoked by martys and savoys. So changing the tiering wouldnt really be any benefit to them at all.
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aplayer
Posts:5
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| 08/11/2008 2:47 PM |
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I disagree. by having a 2 tier league that removes any dependency on any 1 or 2 players....tier 1 and 2 would be separate leagues... so lets say we make tier 1 a draft league or where we distribute players from the top 2 teams to teams 3 and 4 and then have each of those 4 teams pick up players from the remaining teams if they wish. I would imagine that we would now have 4 teams that are really strong with atleast 2 quality lines. Tier 2 would have a similar set-up....with the remaining players. I don't think 8 teams in 1 tier would work....with 8 teams in 1 tier players would be distributed to the point where I think (they may lose motivation to play) attendance would be an issue.
The only downside I see is that some of us may not get to play with our buddies...on the other hand most of us have been playing in this league for years and know most of the guys. it is just a thought....tell me if I'm wrong.... but I don't see a downside for anyone with this...tier 1 players would get quality games each week and we would see some great matchups (which I think some of the better players in this league would appreciate) and tier 2 level players would get reasonable games where they didn't feel totally overwhelmed. |
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rwagner
Posts:16
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| 08/11/2008 9:30 PM |
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I like what both Smitty and aplayer had to say...It's good to see people empathize both from the top down and be able to take the bottom up view too...I like the new offering player...the top tier league would be like constant playoff games...good stuff....the other tier would be also possibly become more balanced...you then have to work out a system for ascending into the higher league...is there a one way street or two way street? what's also tough for people to understand is that there are various levels of players on the teams that don't perform too well...there's people on teams from 1 to 8 that could play on any team in the league under the right circumstances and perform adequately...
Back to Smitty...hey I hear ya on Bertoli's motivation to play for a team with a record like Rosa's....we do need to figure it out...if we let him play where he is we're catering too much to the haves...if we force him to play for a team with a record similar to Rosa's we may be doing too much to favor Rosa's...the only real fair way we could do what so many people call distribute is if it's a blind draw of each name from a hat...we'd have people all over the league not playing where they want to and/or getting real pissed off....and probably end up with a few teams that get a little bit more of the talent...but that would be the only way I could see where we weren't really impeding on anybody's freedoms and choice...if we had to just deal with the cards we were dealt....
I really thank everyone for thinking about this ...the more we throw around ideas the better this league can be |
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rwagner
Posts:16
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| 08/11/2008 9:33 PM |
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| On a separate note entirely...Why haven't we ever seen a team form out of a group of mutually frustrated, well skilled players and peers from the middle of the pack...like a team that takes and says alright...we're going to take the remaining players from the top 40, add a few people from another league or something, and try to go right to the top....Chemistry is the detour but the possibilities seem limitless...Cough Matt Cough Jeff |
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rwagner
Posts:16
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| 08/11/2008 9:38 PM |
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***A friend of a friend wanted to have me tell you that he's starting a new team in the league this upcoming season and it should challenge for the top 3 spots...they're calling themselves Martvoy's...
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Dey33
Posts:8
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| 08/12/2008 4:44 AM |
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| Hey guys. Heres a thought. If you want to be good and challenge for the so called "top spots", then go out and make YOURSELF better. Practice, draft talent do something other than bitch on here about who plays where and why. The people whom you speak of have been playing in this league for as long as I can remember, and have gotten better over time by playing together. I played for Marty's/Jo-Jo's/Debbie's each year since 1994 before moving to Savoy's last year, and we did not win our first championship until 2004. You were not there for the every week beat downs on us by the Villa Parks, Princeton Armors etc. We stunk it up in the beginning quite honestly, but over time became a cohesive unit by developing chemistry with each other. Sure some of the players names and numbers have changed but the core is the same. Same thing with Savoys--they have been playing together for years as a TEAM, working together to create the chemistry that we have. Thats what makes a team good--chemistry. It is not all individual talent or skills. Why should all of that be disrupted on either team? Because there are no other "challengers"? You either forget or were not there when the Mustangs won, the Stonecutters won and they challenge for wins each and every week, each and every year. Wildflowers is a good solid team with skill. This league is full of talent, spread out over a variety of teams. The "newer" teams in this league are alot of times the ones who struggle in the beginning but over time become better. The tournament idea each year is great and alot of fun, but so is playing for the team that you chose to play with on Sundays, or at least it should be. That's the great thing about this league-you are the one that CHOOSES to play for the team that you are on. Look,this is not meant to be a beat down to anyone by any means. I am just trying to say that alot of the players you speak/spoke of on both teams have put their time in both in this league. We have all practiced and honed our skills over the years both together and separately. If you are that hell bent on getting better, do some running to increase your endurance; go down to the rink and shoot on nets; do simple drills to improve your stickhandling--whatever you want to do to make yourself or your team better. But don't sit on here and request that our teams be broken up because we are "too good". Seriously man..... |
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aplayer
Posts:5
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| 08/12/2008 11:17 AM |
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| if this was simply a matter of practicing harder and getting better I would agree with you....and I would agree that in the past that it has been possible for weeker teams to get to the top....however, I'm not sure it is true today. As of today the vast majority of the top players in this league play on 2 teams...maybe its 17 or maybe its 19 but it is somewhere along those lines...and not all of these players started out playing for these teams...why is that? think of how the recent additions to these teams (dey, bertoli, patel, sandro, guy, carr, arnao etc) could have helped the competition in this league. |
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harryjr
Posts:3
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| 08/13/2008 4:20 PM |
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| just a few things id like to comment on i think pretty much everyone has a valid point in whats been said but i think the leaguewide draft to disassemble the top 2 teams wouldnt be a bad idea for a number of reasons one is that you would likely lose players from the league who play to play with their friends another is not many places are gonna sponsor a team in a league if they dont even know who will be playing on that team so the 2 tier option seems like the best one to me so what i would propose is have two divisions of 4 teams(assuming we have 8 this year)and you play each team in your division 3 times and the other division once so the lower tier teams face more suitable opponents on a week to week basis while same goes for the upper tier and then when the playoffs start just like in pro sports top 2 spots go to division winners and then everyone else is seeded accordingly it seems like it would be a happy medium to me |
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rwagner
Posts:16
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| 08/13/2008 7:52 PM |
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| Sounds good Harry...now would the top two teams get a first round by or play in the first round? Will there be any relegation, etc.? |
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harryjr
Posts:3
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| 08/14/2008 9:41 AM |
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| well its tough with 8 or 9 teams to give the top 2 a bye cuz the numbers dont really work but its something we could discuss at this league meeting after the draft |
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Knyaz Taras
Posts:2
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| 08/14/2008 3:56 PM |
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Everyone above has mentioned some has valid points. I can totally see what Dey is saying and If I were in his shoes (being on a championship team, year after year, then a proposal to break up his team comes along) Id probably feel the same way. Besides, breaking up the teams is a bit extreme; that is exactly what the charity tournaments are for anyway. Yes Junior, it is a bad idea to break up the top 2 teams - but not because we'd lose players, but because its immoral. If these players have been together for an x amount of years and built up their skill over time, they should not be punished for being superior. However, there is a difference between having two standout teams in league every season and having the league built around those two teams. There is without a doubt no question that the CJSHA is built around Savoy's and Marty's and I'm sure I speak for a lot of people when I say that. From all the asskissing to the top players, the refs consistently making calls in their favors, lack of disciplinary actions being conducted against them when necessary, their opinions having a heavier weight than others, it is pretty damn obvious. Also, keep in mind I've only been in this league for two years, and if this is all I've seen so far, I can imagine it's only the tip of the iceberg. If you don't think so, then you're just straight in denial.
There are a few things we could do to remedy the situation. One, yes back to what Dey was saying, we (speaking for the bottom teams) could get better. However, to the degree where its going to make a difference, that is easier said than done and takes a LOT of patience. In regards to decreasing the mercy rule from 10 to 8, that would accomplish next to nothing. As for creating a two tier league, there are a couple problems with that depending exactly on how its structured. First, someone in the lower tier will have to play someone in the upper tier, making the finals rather predictable. Or if the two tiers never meet in the playoffs, what good is it to say that you've won a championship in a division of 4 teams? One thing we can do is put a new statue in the bylaws, something to the effect of no former pro/minor league/college standout/high profile players can join the top two teams anymore. (Those already part of the rosters are grandfathered in) For the others that bitch and whine about it by saying how they want to play with their friends, grow up - you're not in high school anymore. If they want to play that badly, then they'll have to play for someone else.
Ryan, I agree, if nothing is done soon, the bottom teams will indeed fold, thus defeating the purpose of this league, which if I remembered correctly, is to expand not dwindle. I will still be around because I'd rather lose week after week than not play at all. Don't get me wrong, its definitely a more enjoyable experience if you win, but I'm getting too old to have this ultracompetitive win-only mindset. However, not everyone may share my philosophy. If anyone has any other feedback in response to what I just said, please bark way. I'm all ears (or eyes).
-Terry M. Laszyn, the team formerly known as Rosa's |
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aplayer
Posts:5
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| 08/14/2008 8:11 PM |
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I actually meant 2 tiers not 2 divisions. I don't think it make sense for the winner of tier 1 to play tier 2 whether it is in the playoffs or in the final. 2 tiers - 2 seperate leagues. as for the asskissing - there are definatly certain players in this league who deserve some preferential treatment. they are good, have won championships year after year, have been playing in this league for years and play in other leagues where these refs may also play or ref. On the other hand, certain acts should be outside of this - punching, fighting, head butts etc. Certain players don't seem to get penelized for these things and when they happen the refs appear to make excuses for why they happen.
Going back to my original statement, I think this is a challenage to the league...how do you keep good players in this league and good new players coming into this league. |
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rwagner
Posts:16
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| 08/14/2008 10:12 PM |
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With all the people commenting....it still sounds like people carry too much biases related to their own teams...no matter the size or depth of people's responses it always seems to be that they will compromise as much as it helps their own team...it's going to take outside the box thinking where everybody trades shoes and trades shoes again in order for something good to happen...We need to be thinking more on a utilitarian scale and less on personal ones...I think we all need to follow the basic rule of whether you're the 13 time champion or chopped liver...if you're having fun stick with it and if you're not there's other more fun and less frustrating things to look forward to like NHL 09 or pick up hockey or Wednesday night hockey at Skimmer Park in Burlington...or the Draft tournament...Is there any way we can keep pick up hockey going during the season? Perhaps on Saturdays or Wednesday nights at Skimmer Park in Burlington or something? It's the most fun...you get to see how other people play, how you play, what you need to adjust...people rarely try to kill each other....good stuff...Sorry for the mellow and non-agitated aside but just a thought
To piggy back on aplayer's comments...In my last year post...when i had a lot of time on my hands...i tried to map out some direction and even target how many teams we're trying to add and by a certain year...perhaps a combination of the 2 tiers, with separate playoffs WOULD work if you took and then shrunk roster size down as discussed at the "brief" captain's meeting ....Haves and have nots were discussing post meeting...so that was like 12 am....how if you want to hack away at size you might have to go as low as 15 (*3 lines and a goalie)....that could work.....it could easily get us ot 2 6 team leagues within a couple of years...And, I hate to beat a dead horse with a stick but perhaps we could integrate the relegation part once we have 6 teams in each division...top 2 in B up, bottom 2 in A down...NO I am not obsessed with soccer or anything...it just seems like motivation
1. Oh no way rwagner because what if my guys don't show up and I'm down to 2 lines....Well, in that case we might have to shorten game length a tad ..especially if we need to get in 6 games a weekend instead of just 4
2. How are you helping the upper teams? Well, because of the limitation on size...the captain's will be tested on their ability to manage well...as most have done in the draft tournaments...and they will have to fine tune the engine more...perhaps these teams will get better...perhaps they will be leveled some
3. How are you helping the middle of the pack? Good question...you might have to part with some convention and drop a few guys ...especially if there's overflow from the upper echelon...the first place they're going to go is the best available teams that have spots
4. How are you helping the teams "in need of the most improvement." Hopefully through trickle down roster effects and forcing their captains to really evaluate and do away with players who are on the bubble?
5. How are you helping the whole league? Well, more teams equals less ref fees per team possibly...and less sign up fee per team. 2 tiers should theoretically lead to 2 playoffs that are much more intense, close, and hard fought...We need to sit down and figure out what our shared values really are, the league needs a mission and/or vision statement...perhaps even on the web site home page itself...and we need plans for action that have specific targets and target dates...Perhaps we could all be on the same page and get more done that way....finally, with more sponsors in the league...maybe (yeah right) ....perhaps we could get more auctions/fundraisers/50/50s/tournament stuff going on and fill that ever empty bank roll up |
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harryjr
Posts:3
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| 08/16/2008 11:54 AM |
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| ok my thinking was at least in the regular season it gives the lower tier teams a better chance of winning on a week to week basis but personally i dont think the league should be split in half and also in the playoffs just like in the nhl the divisions get reseeded together and you go from there not a b champ playing the a champ that is pointless but at least my way there is a b champ in the regular season if you guys think that it should be split up completely thats fine but i dont think its good for the league and limiting the roster size isnt going to accomplish anything becuase a lot of the guys on teams arent just friends theyre family too and theyre not gonna just go and play somewhere else if anything the team will go play somewhere else what ryan said was right many of the opinions have been geared towards helping their own team but i will say this what im proposing will help everyone and its the best solution that could be instituted for the upcoming season huge changes cant happen in a week or a month id say try my idea this year and see if it helps and go from there for next year but id be content with keeping the league the way it is im just trying to help find a common ground that everyone could agree on and at least make a difference this season |
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Stinky Nuts
Posts:1
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| 08/19/2008 1:18 PM |
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| This is a recreational hockey league. There does not need to be any changes to any of the teams. I agree with Dey, practice and get better. I have been in this league for a very long time and have been on teams that knew they were going to lose on some weekends. I still showed up because it made me a better player and I made the best of it. The top 2 teams have had loses to teams like the mustangs and stone cutters and kat man du. This thread basically is dealing with members of one team that are not happy. The way teams get better are playing together. Go play @ Fox Chase and Sportsplex, if you see some players that are good ask them if they would be willing to play for your team in another league. This happens all the time. Go and play in tournaments against higher level players or develop a team strategy that will make up for your shortcomings(Devils trap). Losing sucks I hate it, but I am mature enough to deal with it and focus on the mistakes myself and the team made and address them in order to get better. If you are that upset about losing start a draft league on Saturdays. |
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